In Conversation with David Kaestle Jr. and Louisa Kaestle

Son and wife of David Kaestle Sr., the graphic designer who created the Hot Hero Sandwich logo.

by G. Jack Urso

The Hot Hero Sandwich logo, as designed by David Kaestle.

“I know the name of the original logo's designer . . . David Kaestle. Came to me while I was typing this. I even caricatured him. . . . A really great guy.”

Sherry Coben, writer for Hot Hero Sandwich (and creator of the NBC TV series Kate and Allie), in an email reply to G. Jack Urso, editor of the Hot Hero Sandwich Project, Nov. 20, 2023.

David Kaestle, 1974.

Some of the greatest treasures I have uncovered in the Hot Hero Sandwich Project have been small, nearly forgotten bits of trivia that connect the series to wider influences in entertainment and pop culture. For example, John Nicolella, the uncredited director of the opening credits who appears very briefly in a car with cast member Vicky Dawson as she is introduced. I have a tendency to focus on small details more often than the bigger picture and even as a kid I wondered, who was that guy in the car with Dawson in the opening credits? Sherry Coben and her husband Pat McMahon (the series film editor) filled me in. Nicolella went on to direct 44 episodes of Miami Vice — helping establish the look and tone of this influential 1980s TV series (click link for his Hot Hero profile).

Likewise, it was a side note when I asked Coben about who designed the Hot Hero Sandwich logo. For some reason, I was always drawn to the design. Simple, yet instantly recognizable, the logo emulates a restaurant sign (Ted’s Café is the central meeting point for the cast in the show). Even as a favicon in browser tabs, it is still recognizable. Set in neon, its glow attracted me to the show like a moth to a flame. I even had one made up with LED lights for my office (see image below).

The recreation of the logo in LED lights, commissioned by the author.

Coben passed away in October 2024, and if I hadn’t thought to ask her about the logo, or about the opening credits, both these connections, and many others, would have been lost to history. The same with finding out about Ed Stasium, the Ramones producer (click on link for interview), who was Felix Pappalardi’s sound engineer for the Hot Hero Band sessions. As time moves on, these footnotes become even more and more important to preserving the show’s history. Had I put off the questions as too small to bother Coben and McMahon with, or never got around to starting the project, these facts would have been lost — along with the due credit its creators deserve. This underscores the importance of the Hot Hero Sandwich Project as a documentary effort.

When I did the initial “Short Take on David Kaestle, Graphic Designer,” I did not expect to find out that Kaestle was also plugged into many of the comedic and pop culture icons who helped shaped our era — and deserves his own share of the credit. The fact that Kaestle grew up not far from me, makes this even more special.

From National Lampoon, Saturday Night Live, and Ghostbusters, to Jim Henson, Tommy Hilfiger, and, dare I say, even Hot Hero Sandwich, Kaestle was part of a creative generation that both embodied and shaped the zeitgeist of their times. Along the way, he earned Emmy and the Art Directors’ Club Gold Medal. Kaestle's early passing in 2004 at 58 left his legacy a bit unfinished — one which we now try to fill in with the help of his wife, Louisa Kaestle, and his son, David Kaestle Jr., in this exclusive interview with the Hot Hero Sandwich Project.

_______________________________________________________

Hot Hero Sandwich Project (HHSP): Michael Gross, David Kastle’s former partner from Pelligrini, Kaestle, & Gross, and also from the National Lampoon, wrote, “David was the finest man I have ever known. His modesty and integrity were unmatched. He did little to promote his own role at NatLamp.” This aspect of David’s personality often comes up when I read something from someone who knew and worked him. The New York City advertising and publishing industry is known as an aggressive, fast-paced, and not always so nice world to work in. How did David maintain the even-temper he is remembered for?

Louisa Kaestle: After David had passed away, there were a lot of [National] Lampoon people there . . . and the gentleman who I worked for — in fact, how I met David — by the name of Jerry Taylor, he was the publisher of the National Lampoon. He was responsible for selling all the advertising. He came up to me and said “Something I just want to say about David, he was the only person at the Lampoon that everyone loved.” [laughter]. There's no one that had a gripe with him. He just was even tempered guy and I think it he was one of the most humble people I ever known.

HHSP: It recalls to mind something Dr. Tom Cottle said about Bruce and Carole Hart in his interview with the project, he said, “I don’t think Bruce and Carole Hart tolerated unkind, un-nice people. . . . They didn’t want to deal with rude people.” So, I think those are qualities the Harts picked up from David.  There were lots of graphic designers in New York they could have hired, and probably for less than the National Lampoon’s former designer, but David was the person they wanted to work with. 

Louisa Kaestle: He was humble. He was honest with clients. He was honest with those he worked with, and I think he was really honest with himself. You know, he went to bed at night with a clear conscience. That’s who he was and that’s what he admired in other people. I think it was something that he lived by.

HHSP: You mentioned that the National Lampoon publisher Jerry [Gerald] Taylor helped you first meet David. How did that come about?

Louisa Kaestle: As I mentioned, this gentleman by the name of Jerry Taylor, who unfortunately is no longer with us, he was the publisher of Lampoon. He left eventually and found his own company with another fellow and they focused on news marketing, field marketing, and I was brought in to work for them — I was the first employee, actually — and David [Kaestle Sr.] came in one day to discuss a parody project, I think it was a parody of Playboy magazine, and we were at that at that time in our first office, which was just one big one big room. I sat directly across from Jerry Taylor and David sat down in front of his [Taylor’s] desk, chit chatting about the project . . . He eventually got up to go do something else in another place, and, as Jerry Taylor tells the story, David leaned over and said, “Who is that woman? I need to meet her. I need to know about her!”

HHSP: [laughter] It didn’t take him long!

Louisa Kaestle: So, Jerry Taylor fixed us up and we went on our first date and the rest is history.

Plotting His Own Course

HHSP: I know David started a design firm Michael Gross from the National Lampoon along with Robert Pelligrini. [Note: Kaestle and Gross were roommates at the Pratt Art Institute.]

Louisa Kaestle: Right, Bob Pelligrini and Michael Gross, who was also art director at the Lampoon.

National Lampoon Staff: Henry Beard, Michael Gross, Matty Simmons, Brian McConnachie, Len Mogel, Michael O’Donoghue, Barbara Atti, and David Kaestle in DRUNK STONED BRILLIANT DEAD: THE STORY OF THE NATIONAL LAMPOON. ©Magnolia Pictures.

HHSP: I was wondering, why did David leave the Lampoon? It was a hugely successful publication. I understand wanting to be in control of your own creative output, which you can’t always do when you're working for a publication. So, what was the motivation there?

Louisa Kaestle: It was time . . . and it was it was a really good part of all of their careers to fund this other company. They maintained a really good relationship with the Lampoon and they went on to work on other stuff in the same arena. They did lots of work for Saturday Night Live.

HHSP: . . . and for the cult film, Michael O'Donoghue’s Mr. Mike Mondo's Video. which O'Donoghue made when he was with Saturday Night Live. 

The History of Banking with John Belushi and Gilda Radner

Louisa Kaestle: A funny back story, John Belushi and Gilda Radner were in the Lampoon’s — I don’t know if it was Radio or Lemmings* — the show then ended and so, they came from Second City, I don’t know how they got to Lampoon, maybe through Sean Kelly [a Canadian humorist and writer for National Lampoon], but they were at the end of the show and they’re kind of out of work. David [Kaestle] and Michael Gross and Bob Pelligrini were doing a corporate film on the history of banking, so really ultra-boring compared to the Lampoon [laughter], but they needed actors and actresses for the film so they hired John and Gilda.

[* Note: The National Lampoon Radio Hour (1973-1974) and National Lampoon Lemmings (1973 stage show).]

HHSP: [laughter]. John Belushi and Gilda Radner in The History of Banking? It sounds like an SNL sketch! What happened?

Louisa Kaestle: Well, it was back in the day when people still had answering machines. They broke for lunch or something and everyone was calling their machines. So David was sitting, apparently, very close to John, and when they were both done listening to their messages, John turns to David and says he just got that gig for that new show called Saturday Night Live.

HHSP: What an incredible moment in TV history to be part of, and David was there! 

Louisa Kaestle: [laughter] That’s the kind of story David would never tell. You know, being together so long, I don’t know how it came out, but he was modest to a fault. He didn’t toot his own horn enough.

That’s Gross!

One of National Lampoon's most famous, or infamous, covers, this was a collaboration between David Kaestle and Michael Gross, according to Louisa Kaestle. Voted No. 7 in the 2005 Top 40 Magazine Covers of the Last 40 Years by the American Society of Magazine Editors.

HHSP: A question about Pelligrini, Kaestle, and Gross . . . by the time of Hot Hero Sandwich in 1979, the company is listed as just Pelligrini and Kaestle in the end credits. If I may ask, what happened to Michael Gross?

Louisa Kaestle: Michael always wanted to do Hollywood. He was really enamored by featured films since he was a kid and finally got the opportunity to go to the West Coast and I think it was . . . Heavy Metal . . .

HHSP: [interrupting] I’m sorry, did you just say Heavy Metal — as in the magazine?

Louisa Kaestle: Yes, Michael went out . . . I think that was his first opportunity. He worked on the Heavy Metal film.

HHSP: National Lampoon and the Heavy Metal film, two of my favorite things at the time — that’s just fantastic!

A long-time fan, here is a music video from the film Heavy Metal posted on the Hot Hero Sandwich Project’s sister site, Aeolus 13 Umbra, on which the project began.

Louisa Kaestle: Then he [Gross] went to work for Ivan Reitman and worked for him on many feature films. [Note: Reitman produced Animal House, Heavy Metal, and Ghostbusters, among many others.]

So that’s why he left. Then Bob [Pelligrini] and David worked together for I don’t know how long but by the time I met David he had already split from Bob [Note: This would be post 1980 after Hot Hero Sandwich.] and again, it was a very amicable. Bob [Pelligrini] took more of the corporate business because they did a lot of corporate annual reports and David took the entertainment properties.

Hot Hero Sandwich on-air screen credit for Pelligrini and Kaestle, Inc.

HHSP: Did David consider himself an artist, an illustrator, or just a graphic designer? He had a lot of rolls, but how did he see himself?

Louisa Kaestle: A designer . . . a designer. He was very good at assembling the craft. He was not an illustrator. He would tell you, “I can’t draw a stick figure.” He was great at hand lettering, but it was too time-consuming for him . . . running a business you don’t want to spend days hand lettering logo when you can hire some fabulous hand lettering person to produce something for you with you directing them. He was a Director of Graphic Design . . . that was his real forte. He knew how to assemble the best people.

HHSP: David comes across as low-key, but he must have had a great sense of humor in all of this.

Louisa Kaestle: He did have a really good sense of humor, but it would be dry humor . . . he really enjoyed a good laugh. There is one piece. It isn’t the most important thing he’s done, but it sure was one of the most popular . .  I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it, The 1964 High School Yearbook [National Lampoon, 1973.].

The cover of the 1964 High School Yearbook. Kaestel did the design and was the lead photographer.

HHSP: Yes! I was in fact just looking at it in preparation for this interview. I had a copy for years. Being born in 1964, I got a kick out of it. I saw a quote by Michael Gross noting that while he sometimes gets credit for it, it was David.

Louisa Kaestle: David really did the whole thing.

HHSP: That is a seminal classic parody and you can see the influence it had on the Lampoon’s first film, Animal House. 

From the Yearbook credits, (l-r): P.J. O’Rourke, Laura Singer, David Kaestle, and Doug Kenney.

HHSP: David also worked with comedian Rick Seigel on an innovative promotional publication for comedy clubs, didn't he?

Louisa Kaestle: He did a project with David years ago called LaughTrack magazine, and it was the equivalent of Playbill for comedy clubs. It was a terrific concept, and it was usually a single sponsor advertising vehicle sponsoring — it was either a liquor company or an auto company . . . but it was one advertiser and the same LaughTrack magazine would be handed out in comedy clubs all over the country, but the centerfold would be customized for whatever the club was and include their line up for the month. He did that with Rick [Seigel] for quite a while then departed from that project, but remained a client and a good friend for a long time, and he was actually an agent for comedians and quite successful.

LaughTrack magazine’s Road To Stand Up Stardom, from the premiere issue, March 1989.

Hilfiger it Out

HHSP: So, since I’m from the same area as David in upstate New York, I have to ask, where did David go to high school? Was it in Niskayuna or Scotia?

Louisa Kaestle: I think it was called Scotia-Glenville High School.

HHSP: Scotia-Glenville! Yes, I know it. So, David goes from small town Scotia to the Pratt Art Institute in Brooklyn — then, in his twenties, sets up shop in Manhattan. David must have known the value of his work and worked hard at his craft.

1963 Scotia-Glenville Yearbook.

Louisa Kaestle: The Pratt School of Art was his dream school. He said when he was in high school his work really stood out because he was among a smaller crowd and he said when he first went to Pratt he was in shock because he was around dozens of people who were just as good or better than him! That was really eye opening. He had a good experience there and came away with lots of good friends and people he continued to work with be friends with his whole life

HHSP: David graduated high school and college in the turbulent 1960s. Did he consider himself part of the counterculture? Just an observer? Where did he see himself amidst all that?

Louisa Kaestle: Yeah, I think he was a part of it. I didn't know him then, but from what I know of his life, he was certainly of the times and then he wasn't somebody back in the day that somebody would prefer to known as a square. [laughter] He was certainly into the music. He was hoping not to go to Vietnam, which is fortunate he didn’t have to, he had a teaching job — which reminds me of another funny story.

He was teaching at Elmira College, he was head of their audio/visual department — I think is what he was doing. There was the classic college newspaper and one of his students or the kids he interacted with said, “Do you want to redesign our newspaper?” And he was just itching having just gotten out of design school. He was itching to get his hands on some kind of project. He worked with them to redesign the paper. One of the kids who worked on the newspaper staff said, “Hey a friend of mine is opening a store and needs a logo, letterhead, business cards, and he doesn’t have a lot of money. Do you think you help him out?” And David, being David, said, “Sure, no problem.” And he went off to help this guy get his store together.

1970-1971 Elmira College Catalog with David Kaestle listed as Graphics Supervisor (top right).

Well, fast-forward I don’t know how many years, I’m sitting in David’s office one day with him and he's looking at something in The New York Times and he says, “Oh, my God. I know this guy!” I asked, “Who is it?” He said, “It’s Tommy Hilfiger.” I said, “How do you know?” And he tells me the story about the newspaper in Elmira and kid who was opening the store. Sure enough, it was Tommy Hilfiger opening his first store.

HHSP: Really? Talk about a small world!

Louisa Kaestle: David had a sample of every project he had worked on in his entire career. So, sure enough, he goes through his samples of letterhead design he had done and there he had a couple pieces of letterhead he had done for Tommy Hilfiger. So, he wrote a note to Tommy Hilfiger and had it messengered up to his office — Tommy Hilfiger was then doing the Coca-Cola clothes line — and about an hour later Tommy Hilfiger called. And he became a client instantly and David worked on his stuff until he died.

HHSP: Every time I find something more out about David's work, it just blows my mind that he was crossing paths with so many of the movers and shakers of our times, and, indeed, he was a mover and shaker in his own right as well, despite being as nondescript as he tried to be.

Louisa Kaestle: Under the radar, yeah.

HHSP: So he saved samples of all his work. Where is all his work now and how many boxes does it fill?

Louisa Kaestle: Oh my God . . . yeah lots. I have samples of everything. I weeded through a lot of stuff. I realized he didn’t need to keep twenty copies of some boring brochure. So, I have everything and have whittled it down to a manageable amount.

HHSP: I’m sure it is still a rather significant collection.

David Kaestle (left) keeping his eye on Doug Kenney (middle), and Rob Hoffman (right) at the National Lampoon offices, circa 1972 (Getty Images, copyright Mike Gold).

The Son Also Rises

HHSP: David, thank you for being patient while I catch up with your mother. You must have been quite young when your father passed away.

David Kaestle Jr.: It was about two to three weeks before by fourteenth birthday.

HHSP: It’s tough at any age, but even more so as a young person.  I don’t want to get too personal, particularly as you were a teenager, but were there any words of wisdom, thoughts, lessons that perhaps your father left you with that has stuck with you all these years.

David Kaestle Jr.: I mean, like my mom just kind of spoke about, even at that young age I always kind of recognized, even if I didn't realize until an older age, his humility and modesty, despite moving . . . working with all of these incredible people in history, in that time, some of them still famous today. He would never tell any of these stories. You have to pry it out of it him. Most of these stories are from my mom that, you know, even when he was alive, she would have to tell me to ask him or tell me to tell him to tell me about this story that he had or this thing that he did.

Obituary, Poughkeepsie Journal, Jan. 25, 2004.

So, yeah, when reading things like what you wrote [Short Take on David Kaestle, Graphic Designer] it’s a stark reminder of that and how impactful he was to so many. You know, one thing mom always said, that he used to say too, but she reminds me that every problem has a solution you just have to find it, and that is something that I kind of take with me to my whole life. Everyone has ups and downs in life, and issues they face and very serious ones, whether career or personal, but there's always a way out of it, especially when you have a good group of people around you, family and friends that love you. There's always, there's always a clear path out. You just have to take your time, be calm and find the way out.

HHSP: The National Lampoon was just so huge at time, with writers like Doug Kenney and Michael O’Donoghue, and other stuff he worked on like Saturday Night Live, or working with John Belushi and Gilda Radner, or helping Tommy Hilfiger at his start. David Kaestle was really in the midst of it all. Maybe I’m projecting, but finding out my dad was doing all this would be like finding out he’s a secret agent or a superhero. There must have been a point when you thought to yourself, “Wow, my dad was doing all of this?”

David Kaestle Jr.: Yeah. I think that's kind of, you know, beyond the obvious pain of losing a parent, I think  the toughest part for me is just not being able to kind of pick his brain throughout my adult life. From a professional level, I don't know if he was still alive if I'd be taken over the family business, would I have gone more into that. Certainly something I was interested in at a young age.

Now, I work in the sports world and I work in social media, so I have a graphic design component to my life . . . I’m still kind of in the same room and I started in advertising and worked for big advertising agencies for seven years in my career before transitioning to sports content. But I think that's that kind of what I missed the most about not have him as an adult.

Louisa Kaestle: I am convinced it would have been “David Kaestle and Son.” In fact, when David was born and we sent out a birth announcement, it was a funny little drawing that a fellow Lampooner did, I think Rick Meyerowitz did it [Note: Meyerowitz did the classic Animal House movie poster, see below.], and it was a baby on a little ladder putting up on the door of David's office, which said, “David Kaestle, Inc.” . . . and there's a baby putting up his part that said, “and Son.”

Rick Meyerowitz’s classic Animal House poster that adorned many a dorm room wall.

HHSP: That is just too sweet!

Louisa Kaestle: But David [Jr.] is very modest about his abilities too because he has a definite design component in him whether he wants to recognize it or not, and he's a very good artist.

HHSP: Oh really?

Louisa Kaestle: It’s not an interest of his, but I am convinced he would have been part of that business.

In Memoriam

HHSP: Were there any specific things, pieces David did you recall he was most proud of?

Louisa Kaestle: Well, again, he didn’t talk much about anything but I know the Yearbook [The 1963 College Yearbook]. He had such fun doing that and it had such acclaim.

David Kaestle Jr:. Ghostbusters, too.

Louisa Kaestle: Yes, Ghostbusters. A lot of Henson stuff . . . he did all their design work, their logos . . . very clever stuff. He remained really good friends with Jim Henson until he died. [Note: Henson died in 1990.]

Henson Associates logo, designed in 1975 by David Kaestle, according to the Audivisual Indentity Database.

HHSP: David, looking back in retrospect, what’s the lasting impression, the big lesson your father left you?

David Kaestle Jr:. The biggest admiration I always have for him was . . . you talk about it before, you know, the proverbial mountain top working at a place like National Lampoon and with all those people and then still taking the leap of faith to go on his own and pave his own path with his own business, first with his friends and then by himself. Even though I’m not in the design business directly, that's always something that I really admired in the path that still to this day I want to take myself, you know, having worked for some of the big names in the industry. I think eventually finding a way to pave my own path independently is something that I always admired about him and still strive to obtain to this day because of him.

HHSP: I have to say, the way your father started a business in his 20s and then again in his 30s in the shark tank of the New York City advertising and publishing arena, yet retained his innate sense of decency and humility is the big takeaway for me.

Louisa — I know we’ve covered a lot of territory, but any final thoughts?

Louisa Kaestle: Everything I think that I admired most about David is what I said in the beginning, is humility, just keep a steady path and just be honest and true to yourself and good at what you’re doing. I don't know that he necessarily thought about these things like a personal mantra, but I think unconsciously, or subconsciously, that's how he lived his life. If there is one thing that I could copy from him it would be that is honestly, his perseverance . . . he always wanted it to be right and do the best job and I think it showed in his work.

He was just very true to himself and he loved what he did, and I think it came out in all that he did.

HHSP: “He loved what he did, and it came out in all that he did.” I don’t think we could end on a better note. Louisa, David, thank you both very much for your time today.

Later photo of David Kaestle (courtesy of Louisa Kaestle and David Kaestle Jr.).
__________________________________________________________

Concluding Thoughts

David Kaestle’s portfolio is vast and includes design work for Jim Henson productions like film Dark Crystal and the TV series Fraggle Rock. Remember the Cabbage Patch Kids? Well, that was another client of Kaestle’s, along with packaging design work for such clients as Coca-Cola, Frito Lay, and Jose Cuervo, among others. He also did lots of work for museums such as the Smithsonian Institute and the Museum of the American Indian in New York City, and for zoos such as the North Carolina Zoo. Without realizing it, we have been looking at David Kaestle’s work all our lives.

Caricature of Kaestle 

by Sherry Coben.

Comparatively, one might consider David Kaestle’s role with Hot Hero Sandwich peripheral. After all, he was not a producer, actor, writer, or band member, he just created the logo — but I disagree, and I think so would Bruce and Carole Hart. A good logo creates a visual recognition point which, at a glance, must immediately connect the product with the consumer. In reviewing the press and promotional material, the logo is certainly ubiquitous, but more than that, it is a well-designed branding icon. The color combination, the aspect ratio, and the vertical symmetry of the lettering and sandwich elements make it easily distinguishable even at a small size. Personally, I think the design really comes alive in neon, but small or large, on an envelope, a sign, a press photo, a TV Guide, or a t-shirt, the logo is distinctive.

This was proven only recently when the administrator of the Hot Hero Sandwich Facebook group, Jamie Massey, was out wearing his Hot Hero Sandwich t-shirt and it was recognized, reportedly being told, “Dude . . . I remember that! So cool!”

Hot Hero Sandwich cast member L. Michael Craig (Michael Longfield) showing off his exclusive Hot Hero Sandwich t-shirt with the show’s logo.

Consider, this is 45 years after eleven episodes with no merchandizing or video releases and someone at random in public remembered the series based solely on seeing the logo on just one t-shirt nearly five decades later. 

Though David Kaestle himself probably wouldn't boast about it, that, Hot Hero true believers, is one damn good design.

Bruce and Carole Hart wanted not only those who they thought were the most talented, and whose work reflected the spirit of their times, but, as Dr. Tom Cottle said, they also wanted kind, nice people. 

So they hired David Kaestle. 

●             ●             ●

 

For samples of David Kaestle’s work, please visit the The David Kaestle Online Portfolio with exclusive photos provided by Louisa Kaestle and David Kaestle Jr. to the Hot Hero Sandwich Project.